Hello, and welcome to this NHS England podcast about innovative ways of working with people and communities. Today we’ll hear about how co-production is helping develop better long term support for stroke patients in West Yorkshire.
You’ll hear from Katie Johnson, Rehab & Life After Stroke Clinical Lead for the West Yorkshire & Harrogate Integrated Stroke Delivery Network and Andy Galloway, from the New Citizenship Project.
Katie Johnson
Hi, I’m Katie Johnson. I’m a clinical lead for stroke, rehabilitation and life after stroke. I work within West Yorkshire, Harrogate Integrated Stroke Delivery Network and we are a small team who work across the area to try and improve the quality of stroke services and eliminate inequity and share good practice.
Andy Galloway
Hi, I’m Andy. I’m a business director at New Citizenship Project.
We’re a consultancy and a think tank and we believe that when the opportunity, people can and want to work together to shape the things that matter to them. We inspire and equip organisations to act on that belief, to think of people and involve people as citizens, not just consumers. And what that means in the health and care system is that if you just think of people as consumers, people’s role becomes very limited to using and receiving services.
But if you think of people as citizens with energy and knowledge and resources, then opens up a lot more opportunities for solving a lot of the challenges that we face. So that’s what we’ve been exploring with Katie and her organisation and others, the teams in West Yorkshire. So looking forward to talking about that today.
Katie Johnson
The project we’re currently working on is we’re working with people with lived experience of stroke, health care professionals and the voluntary sector to develop an online stroke directory, which will be a repository of information for stroke survivors and carers for community groups and projects in their area that they can access. We’ll also be support for health care professionals, including GPs, to signpost people to things in their area and also enable healthcare professionals to refer to other places where people will be living outside of their area that they went to hospital in. The reason that we think it’s really important to involve stroke survivors in this project is, as many people may know, stroke is the single leading cause of disability in the UK.
Stroke can turn people’s lives upside down overnight and people have ongoing recovery needs, often for the rest of their lives. However, how stroke care is provided in the UK at the moment, there’s been a long term focus on acute hospital care, stroke rehabilitation in the community starting to develop, but that long term support and that life after stroke support is very much patchy across the country and in some places not really equitable for people.
So we were really keen to try and develop that longer term support for people in the community, but really want to work with the people who know what they need to develop the resources that are really needed for them at the time that’s right for them. And we were really keen to work with the voluntary sector as well in this, because we’re so linked in with what’s in their local community and can really support with developing support groups and networks and support information that is appropriate for the people at the time that they need it.
Andy Galloway
So we started working with Katie and the team back in 2022, early 2022, and we started talking about how might we do this project in a way that involves people from the start and achieves some of the things that Katie just mentioned? We work to develop first, bring together a group of people from across the VCSE sector, people with lived experience of stroke and people working in non-clinical and clinical roles as well. To first co-create a what was first described as a new stroke pathway for that care.
But what turned into kind of a stroke recovery journey, which was one of the things that came out of that process, was pathway isn’t really a bit of language people kind of grasp on to. So we started with a storytelling workshop that was first about uncovering the experiences that people have had around their stroke recovery journey and elements of that that were really important to hold on to in future, but also some of the areas that maybe that weren’t so good and should be improved in any future pathway.
The really central theme for that was around compassionate care, and there were four ingredients that contributed to that. And in the second workshop, we came up with ideas and looked at what had worked elsewhere to bring those ingredients to life and to think about what in future might be helpful. And Katie will talk probably about one of those areas that that was around mapping services, making those really accessible, known to people and a number of other things that you’re working on as well.
I think one of the big recommendations that came out of that piece of work and that came from the participants that took part in that set of workshops was that we want to keep this going. So we don’t just want this to be a one off piece of engagement or co-production, but we want this to be something that we can stay involved in and can sustain and be something people can come in and out of and can be used to improve services in the local area on an ongoing basis as well, which is great.
Katie Johnson
So as part of the wider Integrated Stroke Network, we have spent a lot of time with this group, particularly where the group decided how they wanted to meet. So we agreed on a combination of online meetings and in-person meetings. So we alternate one to the other. When we work online, sometimes this can be difficult to support inclusion and ensure everybody’s voices are heard and participation.
So we make sure we use things like breakout rooms. So we have smaller groups that have pieces of work to work on together. And then when we meet in person, we also have an online option that people can tap into. But we have a productive meeting where people are working on pieces of work within the meeting. And we tend to move these around the local community so people can access quite accordingly to where they live.
The ISN also has a patient and carer representative group and they sit on a steering group and comment on the work that we do and inform the work that we do. We also had some funding from our national policy team with some work around quality improvement in rehab. It is called Esquire. And they supported a coaching pairs to work together to develop their quality improvement and coaching skills to then pull together people to develop what we call our stroke Big Rooms.
And this is quality improvement initiative and they pull together people with lived experience and health care professionals together to design pathways of care, to support the patient voice in designing those new pathways of care. The group came up with the idea of developing some “In conversation with” videos, so we wanted to share the person with lived experiences perspective, but also get the health care professionals perspective.
So we thought by bringing those two together to have a conversation, we can develop some videos. We’re working with our local university media students to develop those videos and we’re hoping to add those to our online directory. We also involve people with lived experience in our interview panels, and I was interviewed by one of the people who’s now in our co-production group, and we have some plans as well for using people with lived experience in our training sessions for health care professionals.
We have a Yorkshire and Humber Training and Community of Practice Forum and we have personalization is on the agenda for February and I think this is appropriate topic to bring patients into, to share their lived experience and what matters to them when we’re delivering health care.
So I think what was really key for us was, I had previously worked in provider organisation and moving to the Integrated Care Board, I am working in an organisation that really support co-production, so I had the support of our Harnessing Powers of Community team who were really keen and supporting us to bring the voluntary sector alongside this work and Arfan who was leading the Harnessing Powers of Communities team linked us in with Andy’s organisation. They really set this work going and I think what was really key to that was the approach that the New Citizenship Project used, the language that was used, and just the complete lack of hierarchy in the room, which is for us as NHS staff, is refreshing.
It enabled people, especially the people with lived experience, to feel heard and feel valued and feel that they had a voice. And I think that was really key to getting people engaged and keeping the momentum going.
Andy Galloway
Katie, it’s really interesting what you say about the kind of hierarchy and how it’s a refreshing approach to take in the NHS to do this work in a way that avoids those hierarchies.
It moves away from some of the structures and some of the conditions that often, not just the NHS but lots of institutions can create around this kind of work that are not necessarily conducive to people getting involved, involved, as we would say, as citizens. Those structures tend towards people being treated just as consumers, just as people whom it might get some feedback, but then very much the role is on the institutions to go out and deliver the work because that the clever ones that can come up with things that will work.
Actually this is about creating the conditions in the way that you’ve said, not just from what we did, but the work that you’ve been doing since as well, for people to actually contribute in ways that they want to as well.
I think that’s that’s really important and that’s what we see in all of our work when we’re bringing together, whether it’s staff and patients in a hospital setting or health and care or whether it’s in nature organisations working with charities and people who are on the ground doing conservation, it’s always a really refreshing approach to actually be working together in that way.
Katie Johnson
I suppose from an achievement perspective, I think currently are more focused on, well, I feel really proud of is where the group has got to and how the group functions rather than the end product. Because I know we’re not there yet.
I personally feel really proud of how engaged the group are and how willing they are to contribute to the work.
They’re literally asking us for pieces of work to work on in between meetings which working with the NHS as we are now, I sometimes feel guilty asking for people to do this work because I know how pressured people are, but there’s a real engagement with the work. I actually ask the group this question what we think we’ve achieved, and I hope you don’t mind, I’m going to read a couple of things that they said.
They felt that the long term ambition and ambition to work together beyond this project, the fact that we’ve developed a video about the work that we’ve done, we’ve got some funding, which a lot of other people working on this type of work haven’t been able to achieve. We have a shared vision in terms of what we want to achieve and we all agree on that and we developed that together and we now have our website name, All Things Stroke, which came from the group and it’s meaningful to them. And we started to agree some of the content.
What I’m also really proud of is the diversity of the group, and I think that’s really key because the more diverse a group you have, the better cognitive diversity you have then the better innovation you have. And also bringing together all these people who’ve had a stroke, but it’s not just their experience of stroke that we’re bringing to the room. It’s all the other life experiences we’ve got.
We’ve got somebody who’s got background in journalism, we’ve got somebody who works with young people, we’ve got two people who’ve worked in the NHS. So all that experience is just a wealth of experience around the table. We can link in with other networks and have some real skills that contribute. I think what’s different from the work that we’ve done before is absolutely what we’ve talked about, that lack of hierarchy, people feeling valued.
And I think what people said they felt really proud of was that they’re contributing to something that’s really needed. I think a couple of the quotes that I’ve had from our group was ‘we’re developing a resource that we’ve needed for 20 years and it’s never been worked on’ or ‘it’s been worked on but never materialized’. Other people have said they’re proud to be bigger than the town in which they’re working in.
And it’s it’s about developing something that meets the needs of the people you’re working with rather than something that’s what the experts and policy say or interpret what is needed.
Andy Galloway
I guess the idea of it being something that is really needed speaks to some of the stuff we’ll talk about maybe in the wider programme that you’ve been part of as well, around identifying the thing that you need to involve people in and then going from there. Rather than just saying, we want to do some co-production or we want to do some involvement work, or we want to tick the box to say that we’ve done it this year and then have it over and done with. That idea of identifying the thing that you need to work with people on and building whatever that intervention is afterwards is the way to to actually embed this kind of approach and this work.
It’s no good just doing the co-production for co-production sake or involvement for involvement sake, if it’s not embedded in something that is actually strategic and actually useful for what you’re trying to achieve as an organisation.
Yeah, we see that in all the work we do with different kinds of organisations.
Katie Johnson
I think reflecting on the work that we’ve done, I have an awareness and I’ve had this conversation with Arfan, who started out on this project with me from our Harnessing Powers of Communities team. I think we both reflected on that we came to this with preconceived ideas about what the group would do, and that drove the direction of the project.
When we worked closely with Andy’s team, they very much put the people in the group in the driving seat of the decision making and the direction the group were going in, and that enabled the group to devise the project that they wanted to work on, which wasn’t the project that Arfan and I had set out to think that we would be working on.
So that’s my main reflection, is that we come with our own preconceived ideas of what we want to do, and actually that might not be what is needed. And the people who are involved in the issue will be able to identify what the issue is and help us work together to solve the problem together.
I think for me it’s around starting with “why is this a problem and who does it affect?” And then bringing the people together who it affects before you start to work out how do we address this problem? But often, I think, especially in health care services, we start with “I think I know how to solve this problem”.
And I think the other reflection I have is around, we come up against WICKED problems all the time in health care and sometimes they feel too difficult to address and this kind of approach is perfect approach to address WICKED problems because you’ve got that diversity, that cognitive diversity in the room, you’ve got different perspectives, you’ve got lived experience, you’ve got hopefully the voluntary sector.
You’ve got somebody perhaps from senior management who’ve got the kudos to make the decision making. And then you’ve got hopefully clinicians who understand what the pressures are in the system. And if you bring all those people together, you’ve got all the brainpower in the room to solve the really difficult problems. So for me, that’s that’s a big reflection.
I think the thing about how it’s changed others, again, we had a reflective session when we met back in October. The health care professionals in the room shared that they really valued working with health care professionals from different areas and what they learned from each other. We know we work in silos professionally, but we also work in silos in terms of locality as well.
So that was a great strength, enabling all the health care professionals to work together. They learned from service users as well in terms of their lived experience. The patients story piece was really, really helpful to really get that understanding, and I think having the engagement has been really, really key. So like I said earlier, our ICB have been really supportive and are really engaged with supporting a co-production approach.
But I’ve come from a provider organisation where I don’t think co-production has been the first approach people take. So I think it’s almost like a paradigm shift. We need to look at how do we address the culture so this becomes the norm rather than a tokenistic tick box exercise in terms of patient engagement.
So we involve people with lived experience from the beginning and develop alongside them and go to them and ask them what the issues are rather than going to them with the problem and asking them to solve the problem halfway through the process of us starting it.
Andy Galloway
I think one thing that I’m reflecting on with what Katie, you’ve said there is around also this approach going beyond what happens in the room.
And we’ve seen this in all of our work taking these kind of approaches. It’s not just about getting to the end outcome like what you said. You know, you don’t necessarily think of it in that way already. It’s about the process of getting there, and actually building that agency of the people who are taking part as well. Especially in health and care of people, managing conditions, developing agency and having a meaningful role in something, whether it’s your own care or the people’s, is how beneficial that can be.
But more generally across the board, I guess wfor New Citizenship Project, I was reading something the other day around museums and if you attend museums you’re more likely to be active in other areas of society in terms of democracy and things like that. So the idea that building people’s agency in one way in someone’s own life might be thought of in a small way, but actually the ripple effect that I have for individuals is massive and for society as a whole, I think and that’s what we’re interested in at New Citizenship Project. How do you change the story of what it means to take part in society? From being a consumer, just a passive person receiving services to an active citizen? I think all of these things add up to that.
Katie Johnson
When I thought about this, I can’t really identify one particular clinical area that stands out more than others because I think it could be applied to every clinical area, personally.
I think the principle of this way of working is really simple. If you have a problem that affects people, health care professionals, we all work with people, work with the people that it affects to solve the problem. So I think that applies to every clinical area. I think it’s about the conditions, you just need the right conditions.
So like I’ve reflected, I think you need senior management support to enable you to work in this way. You need connections with the right people so you can bring the right people in. And then I think you need really good facilitators who don’t come with their own agenda and then you need an appetite for change. I think those of us that are working in this way, that are trying to raise the profile of this way of working so that others can see the impact, helps develop the change in those conditions.
So I think I’ve been really keen to work with Andy and his team to keep celebrating this way of working because I think the more that we shout about it then hopefully the more others will see the importance and the impact that this way of working has. And I think that reflection on something that was needed 20 years ago still hasn’t been dealt with is because these problems are difficult and it might take a year, it might take two years to do this work as a co-production group, but it’s less than 20 years.
It’s time consuming, but it’s really rewarding work and it really has a huge impact and a lasting impact.
Andy Galloway
One of the things we’ve seen through our work and health and care system, whether it’s co-creating pathways, doing those one off projects around strategy or creating visions for services. We’ve seen that there’s a lot of belief in this idea and this increasing belief that shown with the statutory guidance and lots of examples of this going on everywhere, it’s that kind of participatory, more citizen approach.
And there’s loads of inspiration to take and there’s loads of resources for different methodologies and specific tools for the people to use. But what we found was potentially missing is a supported way to actually get started with it and a way of enabling people who do share that belief to actually act on it and actually do something.
So the programme that we’ve been running, that Katie’s been part of, is called Participation in Action, and it’s been basically a response to that. So over the past ten months or so, we’ve been working with five teams across West Yorkshire who are all facing different health and care challenges. And essentially the question we’re exploring is how do you get started with this stuff?
How do you actually find the right way to do it for you and your team?
And and crucially, I guess for us, how do you do it in a way that sees people as citizens, not consumers?
And we went into that with three hypotheses. One was around having a process to follow and adapt, not just, you know, a step by step guide would be a broadly useful thing. And that’s what we provided to the process.
The idea of framing participation in a purpose which we’ve already spoken about a little bit, not just doing it for the sake of taking a box or doing participation or co-production, but just identifying the thing that you need to involve people in because that’s the best way of getting there.
And then the third hypothesis around, if we can equip people to choose the right tools and know the potential tools that are out there rather than just equip people with a specific tool or methodology, then that puts individuals in teams, but also people within the system in a better place to be able to take this approach in other directions in future, not just the duration of the programme.
We’re interested in what it takes for teams to get started in involving people in ways that goes beyond potentially what the norm is. So we look at the Start With People guidance, although we’re not seeing it as a hierarchy of participation, where you need to feel guilty for not doing co-production, we are thinking about more the side of engagement, co-design, co-production rather than that consultation and just informing side of things.
There is value, but it’s less about really working with people as citizens and making the most of people’s energy and resources and ideas. So yeah, to the question I guess around where can you apply these ideas? Katie is completely right, you can do it everywhere. That’s shown with the teams we’ve been working with.
We’ve been working with Age UK Wakefield on creating a centre for positive aging and how do you work with older people and in creating that.
We’ve been working with the team on antimicrobial resistance and inequality and working with a local organisation to build trust and understanding about some of the barriers to health and care/
And a pediatric audiology team who’ve been looking at service redesign. So working with younger people and families to especially focus on key transitions during their care and understanding what is important to people and how you can design a service around that.
And on a more internally facing perspective, we’ve been working with the Global Partnerships team who are looking at ethical international recruitment and how do you involve staff who’ve been through that recruitment pathway before to design a recruitment pathway that really works for people who are coming to the UK to come and work in the health and care system.
Katie Johnson
Yeah, so I found that really helpful, Andy’s team bringing all of these very diverse groups together because we’ve really learned from each other.
We’ve been on very different points of the co-production journey and we’ve been able to lend each other experience but also different perspectives. So working alongside Age UK particularly, they’ve been really helpful because they come from a charity perspective and they bring a very different perspective. Antimicrobial resistance has been a very different clinical area, but I work alongside that team in our ICB so we can link in with each other and gain support.
And sometimes the main thing that we’ve got from each other is just boosting morale and supporting each other because it can be a challenging journey and then helping each other deal with those challenges has been really beneficial.
Andy Galloway
In terms of some of the key reflections for me, I completely agree with everything Katie said around that. I guess the three reflections that I’ve got and we’re coming up to the final workshop in the process where we’re going to be reflecting a lot more on some of the learnings and and publishing some thoughts.
One of those is around the power of collaboration. So Katie spoke to that really well just now, bringing teams together to share best practice, to share learnings, but also do that in a way that leaves a lot of space to talk about what’s hard and what isn’t so polished and shiny and all the successes.
Because a lot of the time, case studies that you read about this stuff can sometimes feel like that “we could never do that because it’s so perfect”. We’d take so long. Well actually a lot of time the steps to get there don’t look like that. So having a bit of that conversation is really helpful.
And in terms of what that might mean for the wider system, obviously not everyone wanting to do this work is going to be able to join a programme like this and there’s not going to be that necessary available to everyone. So I think the learning would be and I’d be interested in if Katie thinks the same here, like is to to find the people who are doing that and create those connections and create those networks, whether it’s groups that meet once a month to discuss this kind of thing or bringing other perspectives.
I think whatever you can do to find your people and have those opportunities to talk about this stuff and then therefore what the NHS can maybe do to facilitate that as much as possible I think is really worth thinking about.
Katie Johnson
I like the idea of finding your people. They might not be where you’d expect to find them.
I think if you’ve got that mindset, you appreciate co-production, you understand the impact it can have. When you hear people in different settings talking about the ways of working, you might latch on to them.
So I’ve recently been to the UK Stroke Forum and listening to a clinical stroke community team leader in Northampton, really spoke to me when I heard them talk about what they were doing because they use the patient stories as a really key driver to communicate with their chief executive, to support their business case, to support the need to develop their team.
And that all came from a co-production perspective that people with lived experience are a crucial part of their service delivery option. So they have a rehab service with patients who access online rehab, hands-on rehab, and they have access to peer to peer support, either online or in a group. And I think they’ve really engaged people with lived experience in how they deliver their service, but also use that voice to enable them to develop their service as well.
There’s lots of people out there and when you hear this work happening in other places and link in with those other people and see what you know, how you can support each other.
Andy Galloway
The second key learning we’ve had is around starting small, and I think this is something we take into all of our work. But that initial hypothesis that it shouldn’t be about applying a specific tool or methodology, but rather having a kind of intention to involve people in a certain way and taking steps towards it is really important.
So I think that can be really freeing. I think that’s what we’ve seen in the programme as well. Not feeling like you have to get to the really polished final product before you share it with people. Not feeling like you need to think of every eventuality that that could come about before having a conversation with people. Often it’s actually much more empowering for people who are involved in that and actually motivating if you take some of the context and say, “We don’t actually know what this looks like yet, but we’re interested in exploring this with you and what thoughts you have on that”, and that’s a really generative starting point for then deciding what the next step should be.
We often say it’s about not making perfect the enemy of good and I think that’s that’s something that is hopefully a freeing mantra for this kind of work.
And then the third one is about being human and I think Katie maybe spoke to that a little bit around where we use language and the way that we bring people together is really important to think about how you can do that in a way that is as human as possible.
Some of the things, some of the structures that we have within the NHS and elsewhere in our lives don’t necessarily create the conditions for us to be human. It’s like whether it’s institutional barriers, competing pressures mean that we’re potentially drawn towards creating participation opportunities that aren’t actually that motivating to get involved in. Whereas if we can think about the language we use, think about what we’re calling things, where we’re meeting, how a meeting, how we’re gathering, is that over food or is that over something else. How we can have those conversations in a way that people want to get involved with them is going to be the best way to start.
And again, to that point of starting small, it’s often a good thing to think about. So for us, it’s about returning to that big picture of what is the big challenge you’re trying to work on and how can you work on that with people? Because I think the big acknowledgment is people care about this stuff. This matters to people. So if you can create opportunities around that that people want to step into, then people are going to want to take part. Whereas if we stick to the same structures, the same somewhat tried and tested ways of involving people, it’s not going to necessarily create the outcomes we want.
When you’re thinking about this kind of involvement opportunity, what is the one thing you’re trying to work on that you need to get more diverse perspectives on?
And how can you do that in a way that is as human as possible that you’d want to take part in if you were in that situation? It’s probably a good place to start.
Katie Johnson
It is so key to getting it right and B, why this work is so good.
I’m thinking of it from our group’s perspective and from the three different types of groups that are represented in our work.
It speaks to all of them, and I think from a health care professionals point of view we’re so we used to work in hierarchies. I think imposter syndrome is so common in health care because people may feel intimidated by the hierarchy in the room. And as soon as you get rid of that hierarchy, then people flourish and people are able to say what they feel and bring their true selves to the work.
For the voluntary sector where they’re maybe not used to working with health care and have not been welcomed with open arms this is an opportunity for them to bring their unique contribution to the table. And then for people with lived experience, of stroke in our situation, who are used to engaging with the health system where their knowledge is imparted onto them and they’re kind of instructed how to follow that information. It turns that on the table where they are then leading something and they are then instructing others how they would like to be engaged in their own health care.
So that is what’s really unique to this way of working, what makes it great and where the impact comes from.
So in terms of what advice I would give any listeners out there, if they were looking at developing a co-production project, I would think about three things: represent your community well. I think that’s really key. Make sure you’ve got people from different diverse backgrounds, different perspectives from the clinical condition. So for example, for stroke, we have people that have had different types of impairments from their stroke, so we have that breadth of lived experience. Carers have been a very difficult group to engage with because they’re such busy people. So we need to think creatively about how we engage with carers and enable them to attend. And then there may be other people like we linked in with HealthWatch and the voluntary sector, our own patient and public involvement teams.
And then depending on what you want to do, you might want to bring in people like business intelligence or data support.
The well-led bit, I think is really key in terms of how you facilitate the groups. And my learning has been that you probably need two people to facilitate the groups because that works really well in terms of supporting inclusion.
So if one person’s presenting perhaps on something, the other person can be looking at how we draw other people into the conversation. Make sure the facilitators are aware of their own agenda and their agenda doesn’t lead the work and enable other people to develop that vision together. <ake sure they’re really good listeners. I think listening is really key because when people feel heard, they engage much better.
Andy Galloway
So one of the things you mentioned around, how you’re structuring the group and how you facilitate and how that is really conducive to the way you work. One of the hypotheses we took into the Participation in Action programme was, as I mentioned, around how we equip people to pick the right tools that are right for them, and their challenge.
And I guess it’s worth saying for you Katie, that as a group that’ a group, a meeting a certain cadence in a certain way. But for the other participants in the programme, it might not be a group and it might not be co-production, it might be first just having conversations and understanding and building trust and trying to understand the breadth of ways that people could be involved is is really important. And there’s loads of great stuff obviously in the guidance, in the various case studies that you might take inspiration from,
Katie Johnson
And I was going to say about supporting that human connection, making sure that what we’re doing is meaningful engagement and not tokenism sticks to involve people from the beginning, enable them to to drive the work. And sometimes you can just sit back and let the work happen because people are so engaged.
And communicate regularly and clearly. I think that’s one of the bits of feedback we’ve had for people in our group is that if we communicate clearly about what we expect of them when we’ll be meeting again, what what the timeframes will be, where we’re going to be, all those kind of things, they need that regular information.
And then I think we’ve all got a responsibility finally to develop the culture. So when we see the impact this works having, but we also see where it’s not happening. We are the people who can change that culture. So it’s around shouting about the work that we’re doing. Doing things like this. Sharing with your organisation can use the power of storytelling to connect.
Andy Galloway
So as I said, we’re we’re coming to the end of this programme now. We’ve got our final workshop in February, so we’re going to be publishing some findings from that. Some reflections, going into a bit more detail than I’ve covered here. And hopefully developing some something off the back of it, potentially some form of training or the opportunities for people to get involved in and take this into their own work.
So if anyone is interested in that, our website is www.newcitizenship.org.uk, and we’ve got a mailing list and things like that. So if you want to sign up and find out about those opportunities and what we might publish them, yeah, please do.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the NHS England podcast. Our guests today were Katie Johnson, Rehab & Life After Stroke Clinical Lead for the West Yorkshire & Harrogate Integrated Stroke Delivery Network and Andy Galloway, from the New Citizenship Project.
Links related to the project are available in the notes accompanying this podcast.
If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please listen to further episodes, available by searching NHS England on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and SoundCloud. Also available from www.england.nhs.uk/podcasts.